POA Question

[caringfor5]

Hi everyone,

 

I have a question involving my fiance and his Mother who is POA for him. First off I'll give you the explanation for why I'm asking this. My fiance when he had his strokes did not have someone in place as a POA, when he was a patient in the second facility they had his Mother sign papers becoming his POA because he still was not talking at the time and still was not at a level cognitively to make decisions about anything (i.e. he was still confused about what time of day it was, where he was and what happened to him). Well he's been home now for four months. I never had a problem with his mother making decisions for him until it was time for him to come home or go to a nursing home. He clearly did not want to go to a nursing home and although he told everyone who would listen to him that he did not want to go to a nursing home it took me having to literally argue with his Mother to get him to be able to come home. It seems like on alot of issues it has been one big argument since. Bottom line she does not listen to him. He tells her what he does and does not want to do and she simply overlooks what he says and does what she wants. Well it became a big issue today when Mike had an appointment with a EP specialist about a defribulator. Mike does not want to have a surgical procedure nor am I sure that I want him to have a procedure of this kind for many reasons, most that were addressed by the doctor, for instance he could have a problem with bleeding or clotting either one and its an invasive procedure on the heart not only that but the doctor said his out flow from his heart was nearly normal at 49% with 50% being normal. While we were in the doctors office and his Mom was wanting him to have another Echo Cardio Gram I said that Mike was not sure that he even wanted to have the procedure done and Mike spoke up and said that he did not want to have a surgery done. His Mother got completely bent out of shape about this and immediately brought up the fact that she is POA and basically was trying to make the doctor do the test and if need be do the surgery even though Mike clearly was stating that he does not want it. What I'm upset about is she thinks that its me that is making these decisions and Mike is going by whatever I say. True I could talk Mike into pretty much anything I want and she can't, but where is the line drawn. Does he have a say if he's clearly voicing his opinion or can she override his decision and go against his wishes because she's POA. I don't feel that its right to force anyone into a decision and I'm tired of being made to be the bad guy because I won't talk him into having something done just because she wants it done. She treats him as if he's three years old and is having his tonsils taken out, the three year old doesn't want to have it done but you know as a parent its for their own good, but he's an adult and he's essentially trapped in a body that doesn't work, a life he never would have wanted for himself and she is mad because he's making a decision that could mean that it won't be as long as maybe she would like, but she's not living in this body, she's not going through the surgery. It should not be her decision simply because she doesn't like the one he's making but my question is even though it shouldn't be......is it anyway just because she's POA. What upset me the most today was that the doctor was clearly stating that it didn't need to be done at this time but yet we were arguing over who was going to make the decision if it were to come to that. I don't feel that its either one of our decisions but that it should be left up to him, luckily the doctor today told her that he has said 5 times that he doesn't want it so she isn't going any further with the testing. All I was asking is that it be talked about further, but his Mom never talks to him about anything. The only reason he ever knows whats going on is because I tell him why we're going to certain doctors and the plans that they have. He's capable of understanding but she doesn't let him be an adult. Whats really sad is it basicaly boils down to the fact that she finally has control over a life that she could not control before his strokes, Mike was definitely no Momma's boy they barely spoke unless absolutely needed and they never shared a close bond like most Mothers and sons do because she was so controling that Mike could barely stand to be around her and its that way now, only now she has this POA thing over his head and she uses it to do whatever she wants. I want this to stop but I don't know how to put a stop to it. If any one has been through a similar situation please let me know how you handled it and what I can do if anything. by the way, I am his fiance not his wife and we lived together for two years before the strokes and he is living with me now.

 

Thank you all,

Tina

[fking]

Tina,

 

Until you get some real life answers, as you requested, I would consult a lawyer in that field of expertise in your town. Secondly, type POA in the search box here and find what has been asked and replied too a while back. Your answer may be there.

 

You need "for sure" answers in dealing with his mom. She ain't going to give in to you as his fiance very easily.

[arogers]

Tina,

 

Are you referring to a durable health power of attorney? My husband and I have two POAs.....Durable Health and General. I'm assuming you are referring to the durable health.

 

Is Mike in a position where he could legally name you his POA? I don't know about that since you aren't married. Is there a reason you don't get married - especially since you are his caregiver?

 

I was in a situation not unlike yours at one time - it was even more complicated. I told my husband (fiance at that time) when he got out of the hospital that if I was going to be living with him and caring for him I was going to be his wife..the laws really didn't recognize co-habiting even a few years ago. In your state you may legally have the rights accorded a spouse now. An attorney is your best resource, and I think it would be well worth your time and effort. In most cases an attorney will grant you a visit at no charge. We recently completed all legal work - poas, wills, living wills - at a very reasonable cost. A durable health POA offers him the express right to outline exactly what the poa can and cannot do regarding his health issues, too - surgeries, express interventions...there ARE limits that can be placed on the appointee.

 

It is my understanding that a POA is in place for times when the patient is physically unable to speak for himself. Most commonly a coma. Bill has always been asked directly about any health questions. My 85 year old mother was asked directly about her desires when she went to the hospital with a heart attack.

 

It sounds like a sticky situation, especially since it sounds as though his mother is going to his medical appointments with you??

 

Good luck!

 

 

[caringfor5]

Hi Ann and everyone who has replied, thank you,

 

yes his Mother does go to any and all doctors appointments except for therapies. She took him to one therapy session and he was so aggitated by her presence that she didn't go again for a week then she went one more time and then simply stopped coming, which was fine with me. She goes to all appointments because she is the POA and signs everything for him because he can't sign, which is one thing that bothers me because he is treated like because he can't sign forms that he is not able to give verbal consent. I have told him that if you want your opinion heard you are going to have to speak up. I am admittedly very resentful that his Mother of all people in his life has this to hold over our heads every time she wants to do something. He has all his doctors in St. Louis which he gets excellent care but he did not want to go all the way to St. Louis because he gets car sick but did she listen to him......no. So now because she didn't listen to him I not only have to hold a bag to catch his vomit on every trip I also have to listen to him yell at her for making him come all the way to St. Louis appointments while she sits in the seat next to me and ignores him making excuses to the driver about how he gets car sick and he'll be alright. I just want to ring her neck. Anytime Mike has a complaint it goes in one ear and out the other, he has even screamed at her that she never listens to him yet she keeps doing whatever she wants. She actualy made a comment to him that if he didn't want to go to St. Louis to the doctors she has chosen then he could always go to a nursing home then the doctors would come to him. I was so mad I could have cried. I hate the way she treats him and in her mind she thinks she's being loving and caring. I'm resentful that a person that takes no part in his day to day care feels that she can make decisions that will effect our lives but without our approval. If Mike were not with me he would be in a nursing home because his Mom would not care for him. She is not physically able to because she is a very small person but I don't think she would have even if she could but she always wants to throw her weight around when it comes to this POA. Truly when this all happened I never thought I would ever be dealing with this as my main source of stress. With there past relationship I figured that it would go back to just me and him like it always was, she was not involved in our lives in any sense of the word and even after the strokes in the beginning she would not make a decision, I had to, because she would say to me that if anything went wrong she didn't want it on her shoulders, can you imagine how that makes someone feel to be told you make the decisions but I'm going to hold it against you for the rest of your life if you make a mistake. But then something changed and it changed when it was time for him to either go to a nursing home or come home and it changed because I wanted him home and she wanted him to go to a nursing home because thats what the doctors recommened at the time and I went against her decision I had to literally fight with her to let him come home which is what he kept saying he wanted. Thats when I realized that the only reason it had not been an issue before was because all the decisions she was forcing me to make were the same decisions she would have chose until he came home that's when we stopped agreeing. Now she throws her wieght around with the POA because she can and she feels its a way for her to control any and all decisions. She actually told me in front of the doctor "Don't make me mad, I've held back a lot when it comes to you". I thought to myself but didn't say it that I've held back alot when it comes to you and I've had enough. In some way something is going to change either I will get him to a lawyer and have it completely changed or I will make sure that he is always heard no matter how much it makes her mad.

 

Sorry for all the venting, I know my posts are long but I really have to talk to someone about this or I think I'll go crazy........

 

Tina

[caringfor5]

Thanks Jean,

 

but I'm not sure about one thing......Mike can't sign his name but not because he doesn't remember it or how its spelled, he knows his name birthdate, social security number our address, where he lives, and always knows where he's at,.....but he can not physically sign his own paperwork. I guess thats another question for a lawyer. I think Mike should be able to give verbal consent to anything that is being planned for him and at least a chance to talk about it with someone, for instance if a decision is being made he should definitely at this point be able to voice his opinion. which is the major problem with his Mother, she's still treating him as if he doesn't even know how to speak. I know I have put off seeking legal advice for way to long but I think we need to see at least were we stand. I think I'm worried that I will seek legal advice and they will tell me because he can't remember the date or something like that that they will say he's not able to handle his own affairs. I actually agree that he is not able to handle his own affairs but he is not mute and he is not stupid, he knows whats going on around him and just because he can't read a file or sign a form or remember that today is July 1st doesn't mean that whatever someone else wants for him should go. Has anyone been in this kind of situation, where the person can speek his mind and understands what is happening medically but can not read or write. He needs forms read to him and he needs time to respond and I don't want things done to him until he agrees and understands that this is what is happening and these are the possible outcomes of your decision. If everything were left to his Mom she would do everything without even discussing it with him.

 

Thanks again everyone, I will be seeking legal advice soon. I can't take this anymore. Its not fair to him and its not fair to me and we've both been through enough already.

 

Thanks, Tina

[jriva]

Good luck, Tina, and let us know what the lawyer said. It might help someone else here in the future. I'm betting there is a legal way around a person not being able to physical sign paper work---when they are cognitive able to make their own decisions---like drawing up a new POA or some other legal paper that covers that situation. After all, there thousands of people who, for one reason or another, can't sign their names. Mike might have to have a court appointed mental competency hearing to be able to retract the old POA if his mother fights it. They aren't as bad as they sound, my dad when through one and the judge was very kind and gentle.

 

Jean

[fking]

Tina,

 

One other fast thought that may prove helpful. There are "Lawyer help lines" in most cities, they even advertise on TV and yellow pages. They can direct you to a lawyer that does POA's and simple paperwork items for free or much less than most big Lawyer Firms.

 

If you are Military connected, it's always free on the base. Once you get this problem solved and behind you, I know you are not looking forward to her visits, but in your heart you have to forgive her so you can move on with your life. Remember, you still got her son. God bless you if he's her baby child.

 

[helpless]

Tina -

When my dad had his stroke, he couldn't read, write, or speak.

But, when he was moved from a rehab hospital to a nursing home, they (the doctor, a nurse, a social worker, and a patient ombudsman) explained a do not resusitate order, he was able to understand.

Keep in mind, all of these people at separate times, explained this to him with a witness present.

In the end, God's hand held his and he signed his name to the order (he has not been able to write since)

Anyway, I digress - I was told that as long as he understood what he was signing and there were witnesses,

he could just make a mark.

Make a call to an attorney - he can answer this one real quick!

God bless and good luck.

[arogers]

Jean,

 

I am speaking from my own experience. We did have a life-threatening experience before Bill and I were married. When he was in a position where he could not speak for himself I was told that LEGALLY, I was not next of kin and regarding life issues I was not able to make those decisions. At 52 years of age, Bill's mother was his next of kin. The hospital didn't appoint Bill's mother his Power of Attorney.

 

Regarding a Power of Attorney. I don't understand how the hospital could have her sign papers to become his POA. I can understand the hospital asking her to sign a DNR order because I was asked to do this as next of kin to my mother when she suffered a stroke and was in a coma. I was asked to do this even though my dad was living - although he was too ill to be at the hospital. How can the hospital assign Power of Attorney to an individual? I thought I appointed a Power of Attorney because one could not be appointed for me. We went through this POA/living will thing when Bill was hospitalized last December. The hospital offered to have him sign the health power of attorney and living will appointments, but he was discharged before the notary public got to his room. When he went back in the hospital in January the nursing staff told us the hospital's notary publics did not feel "comfortable" signing a POA because they were unsure of his cognitive abilities.

 

Jean, I believe you and Don appointed each other POA - someone did not apoint for you. You didn't have the complications of cognitive abilities and legal mental capacity, I'm sure.

 

Tina, you really need an attorney to sort this out. If the attorney cannot determine he is competent to name you his POA you will need to be legally named his guardian. I've just been through this whole thing - even though I am Bill's wife. The attorney told me at the time we had the paperwork drawn up that unless Bill could answer some basic questions about his desires for the paperwork we would need to go through the court system to have the guardianship placed into effect.

 

Good luck to you! I guess the bottom line is your fiance's wishes regarding his health. If there is any way he can make his own decisions he should do so.

[jriva]

Ann,

 

You're right that Don and I appointed each other as POA's before his stroke. But what I told Tina in my last post in this thread that you must have missed was there had to be a way to get around the not being able to physically sign a name "when they are cognitive able to make their own decisions." In Tina's earliest posts in this thread I got the impression that her boyfriend was cognitive able to make his own decisions but the more she wrote the less clear that impression became. I'm glad you brought up the legal guardianship thing. We had to do that with my dad and the judge asked my dad a lot of questions about trusting his kids as well as things to test his cognitive abilities. The bottom line is Tina needs a lawyer and since her last post here was the first of July, I'll bet by now she has one.

 

Jean

[Guest lwisman]

I also signed with a X and it was witnessed I am who I am. This was done while I was in the hospital. They had the papers and the correct people to help. Making someone (in my case my sister) POA meant that bills could be paid from my accounts where I was the only signatory.

 

Since my stroke my sister and I went to the bank and had each other added as signatory to each of our accounts. That way if either of us in incapacitated in the future it will be easy to get to assets.

[caringfor5]

hello to everyone,

 

boy, has so much went on since my last post. I have taken everyone's advice and Mike and I went to a lawyer. I have found out about so many lies that his Mom has been telling me and Mike that it is just unbelievable. I am so glad that I have gotten legal advice but at the same time we are now in a huge legal battle with his Mom to not have her become Mikes legal guardian. We found out after my last post that not only is his Mom POA but that she has also petitioned the courts to become his legal guardian and she had done this all without our knowledge. thankfully she had told me a little bit about it but was being untruthful the whole time but did give me a name of someone involved in the proceedings. Well I finally got up the guts to give this lawyer which was placed as Mikes Guardian at Litem a call and boy did alot of stuff come to the surface that we did not even know was going on. Basically his Mother has been puting down Mikes address as her own so Mike has gotten no letters or anything from any agencies because of this. You would not believe the stuff that she has done without our knowledge. But anyway back to the POA thing, after talking to the Guardian at Litem about the fact that Mikes wishes are not to have his Mother as his guardian she informed us that we needed to get an attorney because we would need to contest the guardianship so I found an attorney through a mutual friend and she has been a blessing. She is not cheap but she is getting alot of stuff taken care of and my only regret is that I didn't do this sooner. We have already had the POA changed, Mike simply told our attorney what his wishes were and she drew up the papers and he made his mark and it was witnessed by two witnesses and notarized. I am finally, after six months of him being home, officially his POA for both medical and financial and it will stay in place unless she fights it and says that he is not competent to make those decisions. Which she is already doing in the guardianship case but both our attorney and his therapists don't believe that he is not capable of making these kinds of decisions. Our attorney said that she would never let someone sign something that she didn;t feel they completely understood.

 

Mike got very upset with his Mom when he told her that he had changed his POA to me and she kept telling him that he couldn't do that and looked at me and said right in front of Mike that I took someone that wasn't in his right state of mind to a lawyer and made them sign something....well Mike was not happy with that comment and the visit ended with him telling her to get the hell out of his house. His Mom would have a much better relationship with her son if she would recognize his improvements and realize that he remembers what there relationship was like before the strokes. He would have never wanted her to be in control of his life then and he doesn't want it now. He trusts me and he doesn't trust her and she gives him no reason to trust her. he knows of all the things that she has done behind his back. She has lied to him so many times that now if she tells him anything he immediately asks me (with her right there) is she lieing to me again.

 

Just a few examples of the things that she has done, she has told the Social Security office that he lives with her, she has told the department of public aid that he lives with her. She tells all doctors offices that his address is her address. She called the pharmacy and changed his address there and then put a note on the account saying that I could no longer pick up his prescriptions. She petitioned the courts to become his Guardian and then lied to us about why he had a Guardian at litem saying that the courts had appointed one for Mike because of his limitations but it was actually because she had already petitioned the courts to become his guardian. She made herself Representative Payee on Mikes social security when he specifically told her he wanted me to take care of his money. After he changed me to POA she called and cancelled his next two doctors appointments so I had to call and reschedule them. She changed the address where his medical card gets sent just three weeks ago after it had been coming to our address for the last five months so now I have to get that changed back. She lies to us about results from tests. She says such abserd things to Mike. she recently told him that the doctors had called her and told her they were afraid Mike was going to bleed out because his blood was so thin. What she doesn't know is that the doctor's office always calls me and tells me if his blood is ok or not and it has been fine. I don't know why she would tell him something like that. My family and myself actually think she is a little crazy....on of Mikes freinds actually refers to her as Mikes crazy mom. I never new how true those comments where until now.

 

Well I've ranted enough. I'll let everyone know what the outcome of the guardianship is, but I don't think we'll be going to court soon because there is alot to have done. Mike has to have a medical exam and our lawyer has to get all the records and build our case against his Mom.

 

Thanks for all the advice.

 

Tina

[scammarata]

Hi Tina-

Unfortunately I can relate to your situation. My Dad had a stroke July 2005. He had all the symptoms of late stage Lyme Disease but my older sister would not permit antibiotics, as a result he stroked. (Strokes can happen if Lyme Disease is not caught). My older sister was the POA which I was in agreement with until the stroke. As a result of the stroke he needed a feeding tube, lost the use of his left side and was labeled comatose when admitted to a nursing home the end of August. Luckily it was 5 minutes from my house (20 minutes from hers). I visited every day and she visited once or twice a week. Because I was not the POA and also because she would not name me on the HIPPA list I was not permitted to know anything about my Dad's health, even though I was there a minimum of three hours everyday. Luckily the nursing home doctor was my doctor and agreed to the use of antibiotics, my Dad made a dramatic recovery in a matter of three days. He was able to sit up and look out a window, recognized me, said my name. All these were huge accomplishments. As the POA she blocked everything possible, from a throat evaluation to therapy etc. and was legally able to do so. I did hire a lawyer, and after spending close to $5000 was added to the HIPPA list so I could ask about his medical care. My regret is I did not hire the lawyer right away. I just could not believe a sister could go totally against my Dad's wishes. My Dad passed away this past June from complications of pneumonia. The night before he died the nurse asked him if he wanted to go to the hospital, he said yes, but my sister said no. The nursing home was not permitted to allow him to go and he passed away. I have since learned that ten years ago my Dad had put his house in the POA sister's name in case he needed to go into a nursing home he would be allowed to keep his house and would have life rights to it. He told me over and over that it just meant the state wouldn't get his assets and if and when he passed he wanted the house sold and divided between the daughters. However, the deed is in my sister's name and she is not following my Dad's wishes, she is keeping the house for herself. I guess this was the motive for not allowing him to get better.

I am very glad you have seen a lawyer. My advice is to document everything, every conversation with your fiance mother, and as I was told it is always good to have someone else present when you talk with her. It makes your statements more credible if you can produce written knowledge of things even if you think they are trivial, you would be surprised how down the road they might be important. Also the date of your entries is very important. This site is wonderful and provides alot of help. My situation was different because my Dad was in a nursing home, but I can tell you I used every avenue and resource available to me. Had I hired a lawyer early on I think things would be different now. It is worth every penny for legal help. Good luck and if I can help please let me know. This past year was very difficult, but through any difficult period there are many angels that help you get through. I hope you find this site is one of those angels as I did.

Sandy